I am in the process of getting a new house contracted. The builder installs a Trane 12 SEER unit by default but I would like to get the XL19i instead.
The house is going to be a single story 2300 sq ft home with 4 bedrooms, living room + game room. It will have 16 or so windows. I live in the Dallas/Fort Worth area in Texas.
I don't know what size unit they are putting in based on the above, however the price they want to charge for the upgrade seems excessive. We're talking about $4000!
Is there anyone who can honestly estimate what a fair price of such an upgrade would be? I just don't want to be taken by the contractor on this big ticket item, but I sure don't want a 12 SEER rated unit in a house that won't be complete until March 2006.
One more question: If Trane offers some kind of rebate on this unit, who gets the rebate? The builder or me? How can I negotiate for it?
Thanks in advance!
Edit:
I managed to find a local website that actually listed list prices of these Trane units and it seems like the price difference between the 12 SEER and the XL19i is about $2100-$2500 depending on tonnage. That leaves me with at least $2500 that is unexplained.
I called the builder's contractor and tracked down the guy who actually does all the designs for my builder. He said the upgrade to the SX19i would also include upgraded ducts from R-6 to R-8 (return would still be R-6) and he'd install the 7 day programmable touch screen unit as well. But even that does not seem to add up to the $1500 difference.
Could anyone estimate how much does it really cost to add R-8 ducts and that controller to the bid?
I am going to offer $3k to my builder for the setup, not a penny more.
well i can tell you this much what you see on a web page is going to be cheaper most time intill you add the shipping charge to get it to were you live.as far as rebate goes you should get that not the company id call train the main company and let them know what there doing with rebate. and if not too late id get 2 more companys to come in and give you a price as well.
To tell you the truth the website I have priced the unit from is actually a local company and included installation cost as well (www.buytrane.com)
The prices on their website are list prices so my guess is that my builder gets it at a significant discount compared to those prices.
As for the rebate I can't get the rebate, Trane rebate is only for unit replacement not new installation (which sounds kind of unfair if you ask me) but the contractor said that he would add in a 10 year parts and labor warranty if I got a XL19i unit.
GTakacs
This is interesting question. I see nothing wrong with you handling the HVAC for your new home as long as you know you will be assuming all responsibility and your builder has no problems with this. You don't want to have a bad relationship with your builder. I agree that $4k sounds high on the upgrade. If you decide to pursue this yourself, ask the builder to provide you a set of the house plans including ductwork design. You can put this out for bids as long as time is available.
I don't believe Trane offers the rebate to a homeowner on new construction but you can check on this directly with Trane, a Trane dealer, or the residential Trane distributor for your area.
The upgrade on insulating ductwork from R-6 to R-8 really would be inconsequential. The upgrade from a standard digital heat pump thermostat to the 7 day programmable-most probably the XT500c would be more expensive. Both should not be more than $500-$600.
I have a different take on your equipment choice. I assume a 4 ton unit has been recommneded based on a Manual J heat/cool load calculation. While I like Trane products(I have new dual fuel system with HE heat pump with gas furnace backup), you should be aware of the expectations in SEER and HSPF for a large tonnage unit. I would look at the XL16i over the 19i because the SEER and HSPF are very close and you will never achieve any payback by going to the 19i. The XL16i should be around $1000 less expensive. Take a look at the website below for comparison purposes. You will be surprised.
http://www.ceehvacdirectory.org/hp.php
My opinion.
Good LucK!
TigerDunes
Thanks for your response! My builder is not a custom builder entirely, they will not let you work with subs directly as far as I know and could tell, so that is not an option.
I also managed to get a hold of the guy who actually designs and installs all of the heat pump units for my builder. I have talked with him on the phone, and he said that my house would most likely get a 5 ton unit. I don't know how he got to that conclusion, but that is what he said. He also said that they will get a set of plans from the builder and they will plan out the ductwork themselevs and measure all the heat loads for every room, depending on number of windows, window orientation and the like.
I checked out the website you have linked me to, and all I have to say is WOW! First of all, they don't list the 5 ton units but on the 4 ton units I have seen absolutely zero difference between the XL16i and the XL19i. They were identical as far as I could tell, the XL16i even scored higher on the heating ratings. I wonder what the picture would look like on the 5 ton units. The other thing I have noticed is a lot of them had a mod status of Deleted, not active so there were no 4 active 4 ton units in the XL19i in the database.
Right now I gave a proposal to my builder for the total cost of the house and I included an XL19i in the offer, we will see what they say and go from there.
Do you know if there is any other benefit of the XL19i over the XL16i, as it shows that the SEER rating is not really something we can go by.....
No benefit of an XL19i over a 16i. Both require a var speed air handler. The XL19i uses R-22 refrigerant, the XL16i uses the R-410a new type refrigerant. If someone has said you require a 5 ton unit, I would definitely want to see that in writing-preferably the Manual J heat/cool load calculation with a room by room analysis. I don't believe that. Keep in mind that more is not better. I do like the idea of a 10 yr extended warranty that includes both parts and labor. I personally think the 19i is suited more for a tropical climate where heating is of little concern. I like the 16i better for your location. I also prefer individual room returns over central returns. Trane and other high end HVAC manufacturers should be a little more truthful as far as SEER and HSPF ratings for large tonnage units.
My opinion.
Good LUck!
TigerDunes,
Thanks again for your informative post! The HVAC person I have talked with said that they include 3 returns in a house my size, but I am going to check out another house (exact same floorplan as mine) that is just at framing stage to see if they really did that on that house or not. If not, I will request it in writing on my contract. I will also check the tonnage of the unit they installed in that house.
I guess if the builder will refuse my offer on the house, I can bargain by reducing my requirement from an XL19i to an XL16i with some discount. That should leave him with more profit but I would still be under my offer price, and as it seems I would not gain much by going to the XL19i anyway.....
Thanks again, it's a shame that Trane SEER numbers are so deceiving.
Update:
I just signed a contract with my builder tonight, and we negotiated for me to get an XL16i unit. The option sheet does not specify anything else other than an XL16i heat pump upgrade so I have to call the HVAC sub and make sure that they bid and install it with the R-8 ducktwork and the 7 day touch screen thermostat plus the 10 year parts AND labor warranty.
I also stopped by the house that was in framing stage which has the exact same floorplan as mine. It had 3 return ducts installed so I guess that should be adequate.
I am sure I will be very happy with the XL16i unit!
GTakacs
I would be interested in what size XL16i HP your HVAC dealer has indicated is called for.I would ask for a Manual J load calculation in writing. While I prefer individual returns for improved air flow/circulation, I know the new homes usually come with central returns-a shortcut that has become standard for new construction. I would ask your dealer if it is feasible for one additional return to be added and if the return air filters will be changed out inside the house or has dealer included a whole house 5 pleated filter cabinet at return entry into air handler(Trane has one,Aprilaire,or Honeywell make them as well).
Good Luck!
One suggestion which should be SOP with your HVAC dealer. Make certain thermostat is installed in a convenient central location perferably in a hallway away from any heat/light source and between or near a return. Stay away from any drop down attic steps.
Tags: trane, seer, heat, pump, upgrade, cost, heat pump, said that, load calculation, parts labor, SEER HSPF, that house, that they
