Here is the background to the problem;
I have a sump pump in the house, which has my weeping tiles leading into that pit (not happy with this design). When it rains, that pump is always running.
I'm on town sewer, but well water.
The sump pump is on a battery backup unit (don't know the age of it) and the pump is marked with a date of April 2011 (handwritten, assuming install date)
We do get a few power outages in a year.
What I am looking for is a backup solution (automatic or manual) in case the pump or battery unit fails. I'm suspecting with the volume of water coming in when it rains, and the dead pump count at 2 pumps in the corner of the basement (donno when they where replaced), that pump failure is very possible. I also do not currently own a generator (it's on the wishlist).
My easiest options currently is to have a spare pump and a simple (slightly modified)fuel siphon hose.
The spare pump is a given, but what about power or alternative pumps (design)?
I had come up with a simple design that I had posted on a quick sketch of on another thread. Taking a simple siphon system, and replacing the hand pump with an electric pump, I could have a sump pump that should technically work as good as a standard pump, but once the water starts moving, the pump/motor stops running. This would greatly reduce the hours on the motor, and if the piping is sized right, could run almost electricity free. (Picture posted below).
Does something like this or better exist?
If you are planning a siphon I assume the output line will at some point be lower than the water level in your basement which is not shown on your sketch. Where is your pump's output going. You show an in pipe but not an out? Will the output of your priming pump also be connected to the sewer?
Here's my two cent opinion. Scrap the idea and buy a generator and keep a spare pump on hand, and make sure you have the tools and knowledge to install it.
1. You will need a rather large diameter pipe to get a decent flow, especially since you will be passing through a trap since this is connected to a sanitary sewer.
2. The minute the sump drains and air is sucked into the pipe your siphon will fail and has to be re-primed. Your siphon flow rate will be relatively fixed but the rate water enters your basement is constantly changing. If you had a very large reservoir (large tidal capacity) a siphon could do some real work if it's monitored. With a small residential sump I think it's way, way more trouble than it's worth.
3. Check the numbers on your battery backup pump system. Most I've seen with a separate DC bilge pump offer a much lower pumping rate than your main AC powered pump. If the AC pump is running almost continuously to keep up your backup may not stand a chance. Also work the numbers to see how long the battery will last and how that compares with your expected power outage, and don't forget that batteries loose their storage capacity over time so a few years down the road you will not have the same backup time as you do with a new battery. If there is a inverter battery that powers your main AC pump really check your numbers or run a test to see how long it will run when the power goes out. I've heard too many people say it worked fine for the first hour...
The siphon idea is just something I was kicking around.
I actually changed the sketch after the post with a check valve in the foot of the intake and one on the output. That way with the pump fires, it's not sucking air from the output, and when the water drops too low for the siphon effect, the intake check valve (or similar) will hope a partial prime.
Back to my current setup...
The battery backup is attached to my main (lone) AC pedistal sump pump. From what I can see, it's basically the same as a PC UPS.
As for the power outages, I have not experienced any yet out here (only been in the house a month), but I do have friends that have lived in this area for years, and it does happen a couple times a year. Some outages are short, some are a few hours.
For the short term, I'll definately pick up a second pedistal sump pump as a back up, and keep a close eye on things. I know from reading a few other threads that some people really don't like the battery backups, but I guess in my situation, I don't have much option.
Hi Mike,
Actually the siphon is easy to set up and although there are limitations, gravity is free. If you have the elevation to maintain a gravity flow, simply use a timer to charge the drain line, with a branch and check valve back into the same pit. With the pump running, the check valve would prevent water flow into the pit, but once the pump shut off the siphon would pull through the check valve and continue to drain the sump. If the siphon was able to exceed the incoming rate the flow would naturally stop as it pulled in air. If the incoming water is more than the siphon can handle, you would want another switch at a higher level to override the timer control and apply power to the pump until it brought the level back down to the first switch, where it would again run on the siphon until the cycle started over. Obviously there would be some design considerations, size of drain pipe and logic to achieve the above sequence, but adapting a siphon to a pump system is certainly possible and if you were to get it right, it would certainly reduce the load on the battery.
Getting tricky, if the siphon was established and a float control was added to the input (in the sump) where it could reduce the inflow of water as the level went down and increase the flow as the level went up, then you might be able to start it and forget it for much longer time periods.
The generator approach will always work, and a generator can do much more than power that pump. But when you have the elevation, the simplicity of a gravity drain just seems so attractive, and DIY.
Bud
Bud;
I'll work out the design and see if I can keep it simple, but working. If I can get the flow rate to adjust automatically, I may be able to keep the siphon running while the water flow into the pit is high (during a rain storm).
My big concern with the current setup is that if we get a power outage while I am not home (I work 5 days a week, 80km away), that my wife (if she is home) will not remember or be able to attend to the sump pump (we have two very young boys) enough.
The siphon idea would be ideal from what I can see as it would only require power to get the water started, and potentially a very limited amount of power to maintain the flow (should the water drops too low).
I am sometime down the road, planning on moving most (or all) my critical items to a solar/battery system. The Quebec ice storm from a few years back is definately a push to get the sump pump and my boiler circulator pumps on a renuable energy source.
Oh yes, the ice storm of 98, I remember it well, I'm in Maine. Solar power is neat, but not an emergency solution for long outages. A battery back-up is a good short term fix, say a few hours, but not 5 days although the siphon experiment might extend the operating time. Be sure to let us know.
My son installed one of the generator cut over systems and although expensive, it meets codes and is an asset to the value of the house, besides being really handy when the power goes out. But, even with his fancy system, it only runs until it is out of gas. Coming up with an unattended system that will go for days would take some planning. Solar/battery would be nice, but you are talking big.
Bud
Originally Posted by Bud9051
Oh yes, the ice storm of 98, I remember it well, I'm in Maine. Solar power is neat, but not an emergency solution for long outages. A battery back-up is a good short term fix, say a few hours, but not 5 days although the siphon experiment might extend the operating time. Be sure to let us know.
My son installed one of the generator cut over systems and although expensive, it meets codes and is an asset to the value of the house, besides being really handy when the power goes out. But, even with his fancy system, it only runs until it is out of gas. Coming up with an unattended system that will go for days would take some planning. Solar/battery would be nice, but you are talking big.
Bud
Read more: Sump Pump Backup Solutions
I was luckly outside the effected area of that ice storm, but smaller scale storms like that scare the crap out of me now that we live in a smaller town.
As for the generator system, my dad just switched over to a complete generator system with auto-start up and all (He originally had a portable genset and a manual throw switch). It works great for him as he does not have a sump pump, lives on a lake and designed their house around the potential of power outages. My parent's house could technically run powerless for a week or more. My house however (currently) if it's raining hard or in the winter, I'm screwed if it last more then a couple hours.
I will be looking at one of those systems because they are now somewhat affordable. They unfortunately still only as good as the fuel supply.
I'll play with he siphon design a bit and see if I can refine it enough to actually go ahead and build it. One of the advantages I have that will make this system work is tons of space in the basement and the ceiling in the basement is a couple feet higher then where the sump pump hose exits the house (solving the gravity issues).
I am definately open for other ideas and or suggestions to the ultimate problem I have. Being that I have never lived in a house that needed a sump pump before, I am sure someone out there might have seen or knows of a solution that I haven't thought of.
Here are your options.
1. Prevent the water from collecting around your house if possible. Surface water can be directed away before it becomes a problem.
2. If the source of water is subsurface, then it will either need to be pumped or a drain to daylight created. You mention 200' to a drop to a stream. A trench with a drain line and some gravel and fabric might solve more than one problem, ie you might end up with a dry basement. I have a backhoe, so perhaps it seems easy to me. You could talk to the wife and see if you could buy one . If you could rent a big enough unit, a weekend might do it even for a novice. Check your soil before you go that route.
3. The pump route is the option at hand, so how bad is the inflow.
Bud
I have relatives in the midwest that have a finished basement that requires the pump to run a few times an hour during normal periods and almost continuously during periods of heavy rain which quite often coincides with power outages. They tried numerous backup systems and the only thing that has reliably worked is a automatic stand by generator with automatic transfer switch.
With all other systems (DC pump battery, batter AC inverter, spiphon, water powered pump) they were not reliable and consistent enough to be left unattended. They were afraid to leave the house when bad weather was predicted, trapped by their floodable basement. The automatic generator system was the only thing they found that was able to handle the water volume through a long term outage that can happen during spring when the snow melts and an ice storm knocks out power for days. The side benefit was that they could also have lights, tv, gas furnace fridge during the outage so they killed two birds with one stone.
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Personally I use siphons to drain ponds for maintenance. Getting a siphon going is easy. Getting it to do it automatically while you are 80km away is the hard part. If you use a large enough pipe to get the volume you risk having too low a flow velocity to flush air bubbles out of the highest point in the system. If not flushed out the bubbles will accumulate until the siphon is stopped. I don't think a couple feet is enough but if you have the pump to automatically get it going again it's not an issue. I imagine you will need a float switch that turns on the pump whenever it reaches a high point say 75% of your sump and turns off at about 50% or whatever is enough to get the siphon primed. That way if water is coming in slowly it will run the pump long enough to establish the siphon then turn off. When the sump is dry the siphon is broken and water slowly accumulates until it trips the float switch again. When water is coming in faster than the siphon can handle the level in the sump never drops below the cut-off point so the pump continues to run which increases your output.
Originally Posted by Bud9051
Here are your options.
1. Prevent the water from collecting around your house if possible. Surface water can be directed away before it becomes a problem.
2. If the source of water is subsurface, then it will either need to be pumped or a drain to daylight created. You mention 200' to a drop to a stream. A trench with a drain line and some gravel and fabric might solve more than one problem, ie you might end up with a dry basement. I have a backhoe, so perhaps it seems easy to me. You could talk to the wife and see if you could buy one . If you could rent a big enough unit, a weekend might do it even for a novice. Check your soil before you go that route.
3. The pump route is the option at hand, so how bad is the inflow.
Bud
I am definately going to be looking at the surface water and drainage. The eavestrough from what I can see pretty much drop the water a foot or two from the house, so that will be something to address. The back yard (which ends at the stream) has a slight grade to it (1-2 degrees total) so that can help.
I'll also look into trenching the water (from the sump pump and house). I don't know about asking the wife for a backhoe. I've already gotten the go ahead for my new garage and the project Iltis (jeep), so I shouldn't push my luck.
For right now, because I have ~2' of snow in the yard, I'll consentrate on what I can see/do and will keep note of the other suggestions for when the weather and $$ permit.
(I guess it's a bit too far for me to ask if I can barrow your backhoe)
Originally Posted by Pilot Dane
I have relatives in the midwest that have a finished basement that requires the pump to run a few times an hour during normal periods and almost continuously during periods of heavy rain which quite often coincides with power outages. They tried numerous backup systems and the only thing that has reliably worked is a automatic stand by generator with automatic transfer switch.
With all other systems (DC pump battery, batter AC inverter, spiphon, water powered pump) they were not reliable and consistent enough to be left unattended. They were afraid to leave the house when bad weather was predicted, trapped by their floodable basement. The automatic generator system was the only thing they found that was able to handle the water volume through a long term outage that can happen during spring when the snow melts and an ice storm knocks out power for days. The side benefit was that they could also have lights, tv, gas furnace fridge during the outage so they killed two birds with one stone.
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Personally I use siphons to drain ponds for maintenance. Getting a siphon going is easy. Getting it to do it automatically while you are 80km away is the hard part. If you use a large enough pipe to get the volume you risk having too low a flow velocity to flush air bubbles out of the highest point in the system. If not flushed out the bubbles will accumulate until the siphon is stopped. I don't think a couple feet is enough but if you have the pump to automatically get it going again it's not an issue. I imagine you will need a float switch that turns on the pump whenever it reaches a high point say 75% of your sump and turns off at about 50% or whatever is enough to get the siphon primed. That way if water is coming in slowly it will run the pump long enough to establish the siphon then turn off. When the sump is dry the siphon is broken and water slowly accumulates until it trips the float switch again. When water is coming in faster than the siphon can handle the level in the sump never drops below the cut-off point so the pump continues to run which increases your output.
Sounds like you have put a bit of thought into my idea.
The automatic generator is on my wishlist, but not in the near future (have other priorities right now).
On the siphon system idea... I am looking at solving the volume control (hopefully powerlessly). If I can solve that with a simple system that requires no power, the rest is easy.
Just to add to the siphon thinking. As Pilot mentioned, the larger the pipe the more difficult it is to maintain the flow. But what about multiple pipes? With three pipes you would increase the total capacity and with either different float levels or pick-up levels you could regulate the siphon capacity over a wider range. A lot of check valves, but a possibility.
Bud
Tags: sump, pump, backup, solutions, sump pump, check valve, power outages, water coming, float switch, generator system, more than, only thing
